I "play by", well sort of in a quite vague way, what is behind dukkha-sorrow, discontentment etc as being a symptom of wrongness as we know it and a-THE catalyst, so for me it is a process, it is an awakener, a helper, a teacher etc etc...I would be tempted to say that it is an indirect line with...with...?? let's say The Source...yet this is perhaps more a "romantic" saying than a fact..the fact is that I do not know what is this energy which is there in strange times of what we may call bliss or whatever like absolute contentment etc ...it has no name anyway..and just know like some , some of its effects when it is lived.


if I do not know for myself that dukkha-sorrow is a symptom and a catalyst for having lived that many times now....then immediately I am back to heavy or not heavy suffering of which I know nothing about , this brings me back to my past totally lost in ignorance and in pain....and there is no way I am going back there, why do such thing..
Krishnamurti goes that way with people often....not only..
So to keep on with what is in bold letters i need to recall some experiences..otherwise I have nothing of value to say so share so I think.
Here again I am going tangential ...and I bring a recurrent over the years, vivid dreams ...
I walk alone in the country, beautiful place by my standard near the sea side...I should be fine yet I know that something is going to happen, something deadly terrible which frightens me entirely....at first I do not know about what is going to happen, then all of a sudden I see the sea level rising at an incredible speed, something tells me to stay with that, not to move, not to run away, that it is too big anyway so that there is no escape ..despite that I try to run away most of the time, then of course I drown and wake up in total fear sweating and all of it...
I have learn that even in a dream well nightmare the best ones indeed, the more significant by far ,that there can be the "awareness that one can act in such circumstances without the fear, and I have done it more than a few times, so I voluntary let the sea submerged me, or sometimes it is a dream where one falls from a hight cliff,same meaning behind for me , and when I do not escape....something impossible takes place...one does not drown, one does not get the body smashed when falling down on the rocks..
then here one learns something...this will be to be seen by anyone when it occurs..as it is never the same so far....
but today's quote comes forth to gently "help" us from Ommen Camp, Holland | 3rd Public Talk 8th August, 1938

• We are trying to escape, run away from ignorance and fear, through forming habits that will counteract them, that will resist them - habits of ideals and morality. When there is discontentment, sorrow, the intellect mechanically comes forward with solutions, explanations, tentative suggestions, which gradually crystallize and become habits of thought. Thus suffering and doubt are covered over.


• So fear is the root of this habit-forming mechanism. We must understand its process. By understanding I do not mean the mere intellectual grasp of it, but the becoming aware of it as an actual process that is taking place, not superficially, but as something that is happening every day of one's life. Understanding is a process of self-revelation, of being aware not merely objectively, mechanically, but as a part of our very existence.

so in relation to dukkah we find somehow the same "pattern" , dukkah is the sea water rising up, or the fall from the cliff..then you do not escape or try to..and here enters into being one of those strange weird moments of life...when life is "good"( sorry for this quite stupid word but it will do for now) to be lived for no reasons but the total relief of this unbearable eight of thought leadership ...
the sea will rise again but one has learn something...and as long as thought is still concerned in such process what is left can be used up to its limits where it is significant to be used, at some stage thought will be an hindrance so here memory has nothing to offer at all apart from preventing any discovery, always involuntary for me..
"something helps" if and when i do not search for it..so when thought is not our "guide" to war, one of its very best achievement.. Thought is not fit for the whole of life ...says dukkah and pain...?

today's quote from krishnamurti comes forth to gently "help" us from Ommen Camp, Holland | 3rd Public Talk 8th August, 1938

• We are trying to escape, run away from ignorance and fear, through forming habits that will counteract them, that will resist them - habits of ideals and morality. When there is discontentment, sorrow, the intellect mechanically comes forward with solutions, explanations, tentative suggestions, which gradually crystallize and become habits of thought. Thus suffering and doubt are covered over.


• So fear is the root of this habit-forming mechanism. We must understand its process. By understanding I do not mean the mere intellectual grasp of it, but the becoming aware of it as an actual process that is taking place, not superficially, but as something that is happening every day of one's life. Understanding is a process of self-revelation, of being aware not merely objectively, mechanically, but as a part of our very existence.

the eternal fight of thought caught as k says ,caught in opposites yes/no, always guessing conceptually, fine if the subject is practical, but when it is not about matter or practicality what happens ??
... Here I agree with Richard by seeing the same point as himself,Richard who is gone from here for a while having said and shared what he felt he had to, I agree that at any time, at any moment, anything from thought in daily life is potentially a matter of some sort of suffering from very mild to very heavy, so is a matter of "awakening", understanding etc too...but this is words and does not relief anything, even if true..
My half logical and half insightful "view" now here is that this is not incidental, meaning that we would just be unlucky to get caught in any suffering when instead of that we could as well have been never suffering at all..
To me this is deeper than it seems to be, what I see here is that this is a process, it is necessary to bring something very specific : thought is forced to question itself, by a sort of too heavy pressure put on its shoulder, that we call suffering, dukkha being a better word for me as it is wider than suffering..suffering is a bit short for me like fear is...such words are not good enough for me now anymore.
So a never ending escape you say...When young I was drowning into that..like you I had been "blessed" with heavy suffering since I can remember anything of my lifetime...but not only...I had too a very good energy , not the energy to built empire, to make money, to win or to kill masses of people, anything but such energy...not my property of course nevertheless it was there for me, despite that many sees me as the problem which I don't, it does not mean that I am right of course..
6 years or now 7 perhaps, aged 55 , I re learn totally incidentally of course to drown into dukkha's effects , on one hand was this unbearable sensation, on the other hand me, awake, standing, aware that I can't live that anymore...very dangerous moment as this is when one can chose to end one's life prematurely, but that was not at all the case...
And like in any case where the weight of life is involved is this fight against it as you well know it and say it here ...
So far thought had always be leading, in charge at 100%....as this is how we start as a child..it is facing something painful and unknown..
And it has no clue is a fact.

It keeps working .....

What I know by experience so far is this: chronologically I see this, there is ad dramatical situation, there is panic, fear, pain, suffering ,sweating, one goes nuts etc etc and more..it is absolutely terrible, totally unbearable...life as it was is over is the image "I" see..and is going to end soon..I have live so so I allow myself to mention ,otherwise I would not..
thought fights that fact by all means, prior to that its own end had not been dealt with, if it is possible but at least it had been move into a very far future **superficially" , for me the unconscious knows that pretty well, I have seen it there..it may stay that way.It may not.
Such situation as any other fact must be lived, not thought about apart when there is a need for practical use of thought in it too, which there will be of course.. as a person who often fails ,I know how tough it is, but there is no other way ,whether I like it or not..."I" is not the leader...it is a tool.
Then all this is too much, again "I" renounced to this fight, too big for "me"...and if there is again no escape of any kind, something impossible will again take place..but this cannot be a goal !!
in what i know thought is not defeated for good...well that would be "great"..especially in very tough time like a severe sickness...but not only..if one is over sensitive to the environment and himself, well the pain will be as unbearable, there seem to be no hierarchy in pain like some try to pretend...so for a person like me it is matter of going back to it all the time...and bit by bit there is a sort of learning and a light which is there, sort of helper...but my actual intent is not to develop much what comes after having lived suffering but the living of it, yet yes it brings relief, energy ,understanding, visions etc etc it gives back life somehow if I may say, there is great interest behind all that..
does it seem to say that nothing least as such ? well this could be..
But unlike k I am a beginner yet 61 years old ..but here as I have read all his books and biography, I know, by a simple sentence out of the way or such thing, that he had too to solve problems when they were arising, he seemed to have been able to tackle them at their birth so live them ,then they will speak is my impression...now it can be right or not..
second question in bold letters: my view only, it is because it must be that way otherwise thought is too powerful and will not allow anything else but itself to exist unless it can use it...incidentally, no not at all incidentally, this is what takes place in the outer..

John::  is thought really defeated or it is simply dormant, just waiting to be waked up by the thinker?

Agreed it always seems to come back, but again thought using a real experience, a deep one is now trying to use it to its profit an imagine that now it is for good, I have changed and it will last forever..this again is going to create another pain that will have to be understood...
is it what k mentions when he talks about constant awareness of thoughts...?? I would be tempted to say so..this shows that immediately thought go back to its usual blah blah...what I know is that there is a building up of some form of non accumulative knowledge like in practical matters, then when a discovery is made like in a miracle , one does not have to start the same path again and again and one will start from a position where the previous discovery is useful to some limits , ie: one knows that suffering must be left alone somehow

John:
I would like to ask first, is that "fed up with the situation one is", a kind of resistance to the situation like to mental sort of pain, sorrow etc? ... And if it is so, would be then the defeat or the give up of thought the end of such resistance? ... Now, the question is why do we resist to the present situation?

It is a resistance as I see that  yes, but usually not perceived as a resistance at all so for what it is so here is a huge problem of course..the global feeling would be more like a global huge confusion where practically nothing is understood, and most energy is used in trying to do something about all that mess which hurts and is painful without having a clue of what is going on, intellectually this is an absolute impossible mission even for a IQ like "me" :-))
the give up is the end yes...it is one single movement.
why do we resist ? routine, habit , ignorance, lack of curiosity, etc all this is the functioning of thought itself ..thought sees itself as all powerful, conceptually it does everything it can imagine, it is only intellectual it has no reality but thought finality , out of many, has the one to interact in practical life to walk, me and the environment, up to making tools, techniques ,etc etc so what it has decided as a concept must exist for itself as it is in its program, what I have decided have to exist, and when thought tries to deal with matters that it cannot so should not deal with but does not know that, it proceeds the same way with making tools than with suffering...it decides that it must go even find some explanations of its own for that, they are always wrong of course ..so it basically never works .
we have a problem, suffering-dukkha, the roots are unknown, "I" say : go away, it does not work, never...it can be a bit covered up by alcohol,drugs,religion, sex work ,money etc but basically it is a bit covered up not understood so not solved ..so it persists ..
this is where some sort of resistance is...we do not know what is going on so the matter is not solved so it remains only a sort of resistance to something more powerful than what thought can deal with ..especially since it is unknown ..
to be continued

Marc. wrote:
I would like to ask first, is that fed up with the situation I(one) is, a kind of resistance to the situation? ... And if it is so, would be then the defeat or the give up of thought the end of such resistance? ... Now, the question is why do we resist to the present situation?

I see it as a resistance yes, but not perceived as a resistance ..the global feeling would be more like a global huge confusion where practically nothing is understood, and most energy is used in trying to do something about all that mess which hurts and is painful without having a clue of what is going on, intellectually this is an absolute impossible mission even for a IQ like "me" :-))
the give up is the end yes...it is one single movement.
why do we resist ? routine, habit , ignorance, lack of curiosity, etc all this is the functioning of thought itself ..thought sees itself as all powerful, conceptually it does everything it can imagine, it is only intellectual it has no reality but thought finality , out of many, has the one to interact in practical life to walk, me and the environment, up to making tools, techniques ,etc etc so what it has decided as a concept must exist for itself as it is in its program, what I have decided have to exist, and when thought tries to deal with matters that it cannot so should not deal with but does not know that, it proceeds the same way with making tools than with suffering...it decides that it must go even find some explanations of its own for that, they are always wrong of course ..so it basically never works .
we have a problem, suffering-dukkah, the roots are unknown, "I" say : go away, it does not work, never...it can be a bit covered up by alcohol,drugs,religion, sex work ,money etc but basically it is a bit covered up not understood so not solved ..so it persists ..
this is where some sort of resistance is...we do not know what is going on so the matter is not solved so it remains only a sort of resistance to something more powerful than what thought can deal with ..especially since it is unknown ..

Marc. wrote:
On the other hand, with 'thought is actually and really totally defeated' do you mean that this defeat is because thought cannot deal with the present 'far too heavy weight' situation as could be a cancer or some else deep suffering? ... If it is so, what remains there after thought 'throws the towel' (not looking for THE answer, just inquiring)? ... Is it awareness or a direct perception of what is happening? ...

Well, what I bring here is the recalling of such past as your inquiry mentions, I am not talking from a present right now and living this...
this defeat comes from totally and entirely being fed up with the situation I-one is....and living it for once ..no thoughts involve apart from that absolutely viral one: I am fed, up defeated, I stay with that whatever takes place...
this is my first time original last thought before something weird took place...at the time I was unaware of such possibility, so all what was there was the weight of life and me defeated accepting whatever will take place without being even sad.. what took place once will not take place twice at this level, because memory is now in the way trying to reproduce such experience, always somehow consciously but most of the time unconsciously..a new discovery somehow will need to be made...
as long as I am not too fed up, I'll obviously will go on with what takes place in my life...
in such moment one is fed up yes, but not in the sense which could bring the idea to end one's life prematurely, I mean the moment I talk about does not contain the usual self typing,self crying etc etc
thought having tried according to itself all what it could possibly do for once does not find even one single escape any more..thought is stuck there in such corner with the heavy weight and when there is no escape what takes place ?? is what I am talking about...this moment is a vital one..
the intellectual grasping of that as an idea is of course not enough as this is a doing to be done by oneself, somehow...
why "somehow" ? because I see so far that this is personal only, this somehow will depend on anyone..
When such proper doing takes place, it immediately brings a different state in the brain mind and is always different as to the content brought but not that much as to the form it takes..so it is not that useful to say more about that right now...what I am trying to say up to now according to me can be shared up to some limits of course..I know that for having done some "work" on that wavelength with my 5 children in very tough time, and something happened , they found ways into that, now that they have some recalling of it, as globally they are fine, I have no reason at all to insist about it...I would even say that they found something by themselves, up to them now ...on the other hand many now old friends just run away :-))..
so it "works" more easily in time of heavy trouble..as troubles somehow exist too for that...the heaviness of life is not incidental or bad luck, it has a quite define birth and growth for me.
you say : Is it awareness or a direct perception of what is happening? ...
So as awareness is one of those words which leave me blank...and I really mean that , I would not know...
Is it direct perception? I don't know....what seems quite clear is that this brings in a row the solving of one or more problems, that "I" do not choose, this is totally out of my hand now...another process works when before it did not........
the solving is instant and happens by this involuntary seeing deeply of the root of it and all of it ( or sometimes there is no seeing but a bliss replacing the heavy sadness then one knows that one problem or more have been solved without knowing which one as what is not conscious is totally involved in such time..) , in let us say an insightful manner, then it is understood for good...it does not mean that it is solved for good, as it may come back, thought doing bad job again, but the deep seeing left something that will again work and this time will not solve the problem long after but will see it arising and will immediately deal with it ....
I am not able to make a define map of all that....
to come back to your point , there is the involuntary seeing,deep ,very deep not from thought as we know it,something x is at work that is obvious when it takes place but direct perception is not something I clearly understand, yet I have such a bright brain :-)) ..something sees what thought cannot is what I see so far....
I do not search to understand, this comes from one of those deep seeing which left something that will again work, but this is my own history and here of no direct interest in what I am trying to say...which is all for now...