John wrote:
Perhaps i'm not understanding you rightly, but let me ask: can we, i mean you and me, cooperate if at the same time we are fighting one each other? ... Wouldn't be this a mere exchange of particular interests and not a real cooperation? ... I question that they cooperate at all, which would mean that they would have a whole view of the world and its conflicts (themselves as part of it also) without any bias ... Is that happening?

Hi John...
thanks for the dialogue. Yes I agree here . On the practical side taken separately the do cooperate unwillingly but they see that they must do that to succeed even though they fight too.., there is a sort of collaboration yet of course it is based on mutual greed so personal interest only so fight too but at some level they is collaboration, when at the people level there is no collaboration at all, but a forced working together because we put "me" first and me business is not to collaborate ...I mean here that the leaders are a sort of united group and the people of earth are not...yet some are part of groups of common interest but not in sectors of activity where they have some power at all about what is called economy, so are powerless..
for me it is the disintegration of people's togetherness within oneself so with others which has allowed mad insane leaders to be....And of course in any process of elimination as this is what takes places within the leaders too some are eliminating in a more efficient way than others so we have a one main group now in power...because they do actively cooperate somehow yet too of course are fighting as well ...all this can collapse at any time but with what we are now it only will be to recreate the same sort of society...
but all this is superficial of course..my view so far.

John wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:
the totalitarianism of the analytical process on the brain is the problem,

I told you that your words are always inspiring to me ... Totally agree with you, but we don't see this at all ... One could spend the whole life going deep into this single phrase and its deep meaning.
Yes I can remain analytical only, by I I mean anyone.I will develop that more down below.

John wrote:
That's my view also about the myth of Adam and Eve, and then the 'Dictator' made its appearance and we believed him ... But if that was so, how it was that a sane brain with all its faculties turned on became mesmerized with the orders of such a 'Dictator'?

I think , this is what I know by experience so valid for me at least, that we possibly get the dictator brain at birth, we keep it during "childhood" , then something takes place in order to turn on all our capacities, innate capacities...and this does not globally take place anymore...
we keep that childish brain only turned on...and the result is what we see...here it is necessary to be able to really have in a few second a global seeing of the entire world affairs...something I do ..
We have triggers and help in each one of us to go that way...this way is lost..Buddha re found it, k too and probably some unknown persons too...what we call suffering, what Buddha called dukkha is for me the process here to help that transformation to take place..without searching for it..and that is THE main problem, because mostly it is always thought which tries to do that...so nothing else but the childish brain is turned on, our full brain does not work...
So I do not think that a brain with all its faculties was mesmerised, it seems that those faculties do not turn themselves on any more because we do not do the right thing....thought prevents it, in my view thought does not do it on purpose at all, it is just too limited to do so..or differently put it is not its job to go into that, at this level for me it is now clear that its job at this level is to learn to live dukkah-suffering....because thought sees two elements where there is factually one only , gain not its fault as it is how it works as to analyse so to physically live thought vitally needs to separate One in many parts, it cannot analyse the global so it cuts it into conceptual pieces to do so...then it can analyse what it has memorised only...
thought has no capacity when it is about wholeness of life nor when it is about something it has not memorised..again my view...our turned off capacities have...I know this by experiences like some do..

Dialogue with Krishnamurti...

Krishnamurti:
We are concerned with the whole of life, not just a career, nine to five, how we live, what we do, what our thinking is, whether there is affection, care, love, compassion. All that is part of life. But we are so conditioned to this idea that we must work and create a structure of a society that demands that you work from morning until night. The speaker refuses to play into that rat race.
Krishnamurti:
, we want security which we think we have, which we haven't got. So will you go into this and find out if you can  free yourself from that 'rat race'and to find out one must exercise capacity, intelligence, not say, "I won't do it". You don't do it because you are intelligent, not because you are told, or you have read in some book, or some philosopher. I think it is very clear.

This is clear we have no security at all, I may be sure to have food yes but the division between myself and myself( me and not me) and so of myself and others is insecurity because the only relative security we will ever have is by willingly cooperating and sharing....the ongoing competition hiding in fact a process of elimination a direct side effect of the conceptual analysing prevents that at all level, for the super wealthy as well, as tomorrow or now the people may turn their anger towards them and their billions saved won't prevent them from a tragic death, so that in fact they are like the rest of us living insecurity...
The occidental world is loaded with fear of tomorrow when we have too much food all over the place apart from where some will die of starvation...that is insane..
Security or what we call security, is a matter of thought, our other capacities are not concerned with that...what takes place is that thought forecasts the future X, y Y or z, where it sees death : death denies to thought the right to seek for absolute continuity, but does not deny the right to seek for relative continuity....if I deny death as a fact which we all do apart from exceptions, "I", so, can seek for absolute security which is non existent = suffering...suffering simply says: this is not allowed, that is all...suffering is a good friend...
Relative security is to be found only in cooperation and equal sharing, never in the eliminating process called competition..we all refuse that apart from exceptions...this is where this world will have to go....or not, as we still can collectively accept the rat race...out of ignorance so insanity..as this prevents all our capacities to flourish ....
this is what we are up to ,seeking for the absolute where there is only the relative...so whatever amount of wealth stolen to the group we have, what takes place is a feeling of insecurity because I look for some absolute which is a dream, false, non existent...
The leaders are putting a lot of emphasis on that elimination, called competition to hide itself better, because they need that to steal us with our consent to be stolen in exchange for whatever...it creates total division between people, then stealing is a piece of cake..in the meantime the leaders cooperate up to what is possible to do within the limits of their own greed and violence...

to be con.tinued

Hello

Suffering, is a word , meant to be a representation of something non practical..
Any practical word means something precise to anyone, a chair we all see what it is.

We all have the same interpretation of "chair".

When it comes to non practical so visual fields, it gets more complex...

What do I mean by suffering here, mental suffering ?...it would be close enough to the word dukkha from the Buddhist times, yet you'll see right away that I am not at all a specialist of Buddhism and far from it.

Suffering for me contains all this and more: discontentment, sorrow, pain, frustration,fear, anxiety, terror, sadness, depression, etc etc so suffering is for me a signal saying that something is wrong.

Whatever the root of it is does not matter at first.

I speak of suffering as a signal that we usually hate and so we try to get rid of it, somehow like by trying to ignore it, get used to it, tame it, face it, explain it ,cover it etc etc

Can I get rid of what I don't know just by saying words ??

This is what we-I usually do....

This signal as an origin. What do I do with that when I do not know about mental suffering being a signal  so about its origin?

Run away is what I do..

All of us probably had such dreams where you keep trying to run away from something, but one is too slow and whatever we run away from is always behind our back...then it becomes a nightmare and usually I wake up in terror, sweating, shivering, petrified etc.

My own experience says that this is what we try to do with suffering, suffering being unknown as to its roots of course...

Usually many years later, life says : next! so better luck next time if there is such thing which I do not know about. This problem is not solved. Especially that now we are sure that this is part of life....that's the way it is.For myself I say no, this is not what life is meant to be....

Here we go into subject that is avoided by all means, which I understand of course, who would be fool enough to be interested in such topic, one must be mad to do that!!

I am just realising that this weird tittle I admit it,  kundalini, bliss ,suffering , life,  is quite in disorder and instead a logical order would have been , life, suffering, bliss ,kundalini...the kundalini being even optional in fact, it is only one of so many aspect of what may take place when life, suffering , bliss had been realised..

For me if I remove suffering there is no bliss and more...not that I have to suffer, or seek for that at all, but when it is there and I do not get what it is, there is no ..next, no bliss etc..

because as I have seen it suffering or rather the principle which hides behind this far too simple word which between us says far too little, is a catalyst  as well as it is a symptom, a signal...

this is one of those many processes we have and are ignoring to be so...

Well my mood is not that much into writing..in a few days I'll go away for 2 or 3 weeks...

The this process which his a signal and a catalyst will be for some time the main subject here...

Enjoy the day...

cheers..

Good morning...

it happens that in the title appears the word bliss and the word suffering....then life.

It looks  like a random choice. Poor one !

Chronologically, my reason to write anything starts with suffering and not at all with this moment called kundalini, not this full day in total weird bliss, yet privately in real chat with some people, I would evoke those moments when I had the feeling that it was good to do so. This is how I met or heard about some other and their own stories , true stories on that wavelength..

Such sharing opens up possibilities in ways that even if I had lived the "impossible" for me out of the blue, make some experiences told by others widening by a lot an unknown field where everything can be a possibility, of course not everything in terms of doing even worse that what we actually are doing...or in terms like of not dying, so not in practical terms but in terms of anything which is not that...

It seems that we as a species are totally and absolutely out of the right tack, out track.

This is why if anyone has something to share on that wavelength I will be deeply interested to read about such facts...

Why is there suffering?
What is that ?
Life as a human is suffering? competition? war? business? conflict? pyramidal society, where each lair squeezes and crushes  the one below ? etc .

What I know by experiment is this: one day for some reasons, I did nothing about such suffering..I realised now that it happens that I was good at dealing with that from quite young, and I feel now that this so called kundalini and the bliss and more were side effects of properly living suffering...and what comes after that as side effects.

So I did nothing, what exactly does it mean?

Years of discontentment,  brought me to the point where I just renounced to keep fighting, to keep resisting whatever would take place and so "I" was defeated so all what was there was suffering....and this is exactly where the unexpected started to take place by itself as it wishes to...

The first event to take place was a total relief from pain-sorrow so there was  a state of "Goodness"....of feeling lighter, light.

There was this presence of energy within, not the big huge energy felt when the kundalini was taking place, but it was the same type,so had the same taste yet at a lesser scale...

The days which follow up to now some 8 years later, the kundalini and + was 40 years ish ago, have brought back a life because in fact i was self destroying myself because of this inability to live  sorrow-suffering as it shall be.

I leave it here for today.

Hello again, if there is anyone reading and willing to ask details or more questions about post 1 and 2, feel free to do so.

I did not extend quite purposely the impossible descriptive of such moments but do not mind to go into it, or hear from others having been there , out of the blue I guess.

thanks.

Dan:  this seems a particularly 'grim' assessment of our situation: the brain caught in a process of constantly seeking new 'experience'(sensations) from a "dead centre" without a seeming ending. Much like an addiction, but not to any object, but to the process itself...Is this the description of the (overworked) 'analyser' that you often mentions?:


Hello Dan, I saw this a good while ago and I just come back to it now...

To answer my ways this yes it is some  of it indeed. It is not easy to go into that by all means, because there are many angles to go into that and most won't bring anything at all but more blah blah so not only will be useless but will bring more problems, well if it is at all possible :-))...saying that for myself....

I agree with you when you bring this "addiction to the process itself"...agreed with the grim assessment too..

I had this vision ( involuntary as usual of course)  of this analyser-analysing program which took the symbolic form of a now rusty square iron machine, equipped with an infinite number of fishing rods and this machine does one main thing: it constantly keep trying to catch anything with its hook...

it is mechanical, automatic, and....random !! desire or the will to gain personal "goodies" is the main incentive of this machine..when I remove such an incentive what takes place ? Self pride and self adorations are incentives too, desire is at the root and self pride at the end...all this makes though function...and after tons of causes and effect reactions it ends up in our world, to be seen for ALL what it is an not from a specific angle.

but as we feel it, sense it or see it, it has a down side...I say it with no proof but I know it for myself that this is meant to take place....we just  have lost touch with that and so many other things...our machines and complex calculation make us think that we are progressing( true about those aspects)  when we are globally declining ....in very damaging ways....so I say but most do not say so.

etc of course, this is the analyser program which is  used to write here too...

this bring  this questions: where am I ( are we) speaking from ? facts? experiences? imagination? hope? fear? lies? etc etc

there is this machine used here by "me" to write and the background it refers to ...

Usually the machine and its memory component is the background from which I speak, write, think, evaluates, kill, steal  etc etc it is both sort of the analyser and the analysed , the machine and what it does is both...

this is fine to avoid falling from the cliffs, because there is a separation, "me" is not the cliff nor the quick sand, not the deadly pond , not the fire etc ,..this allows some analysing of the situation to take place, the proper analysing sees that and adjust its walk to avoid the falling....

me and the environment are two elements..this is vital to move and more ...is it where this "me" takes place ??

again the memory can be facts or not, the past ones as well as what the future must be...if it speaks from facts the re-transcription of it will loose some of it in the possible writing and some of it in the reception of the message...as well as some of it in my own special ways to read it...

etc... so back to the grim assessment, the analyser..the analyser is globally and permanently in a state of deep frustration and discontentment at the best...it thinks that this is life, it is a conclusion it has, it is based on....nothing at all !!

it may not be aware of it anymore ,as now it sees all that as an inevitable fact of being alive, part of life, helped by a very old propaganda from the thieves leading us with our acceptance, whether through imaginary religion or whatever ..

If so, then what I write here is a total nonsense to anyone in that case ....apparently, not to forget what now has become not conscious for what is left of our brain, and this is forgotten unless one has some time with that , somehow.

If not so, then we ( global)  may keep some exchange on that.

The analyser is frustrated, in fear and much more, full of hopes but that is for tomorrow not an actuality, and out of a spark of intelligence ( global always) it says : *this is not life* !! "it" knows it, deeply , it is sure of it !! it does not listen to anyone!! etc it does not know the root of that, of course at first it is not seeking for that at all as it attempts to run....bit by bit all pain is increasing..wrong way sense  the still totally lost  analyser..by saying this is not life, thought is questioning life as it knows it itself !!! that a big huge move...

then, another spark of global intelligence is there so apparently out of the blue but it is not as such, under the pressure of its life that it now does not accept as such so starts questioning life itself, whatever the consequences will be it now stops searching let's say for 10 seconds, meaning it stops working as a rotten machine....this stop, if real and deep even for a second will be enough to allow some other capacity to start functioning again , AS THEY WISH, according to their own "program" , John wrote something about that in another thread..this I know as a factual experiments.

So what takes place here is: I need as   I want to solve this frustration, and much worse...I do not accept at all this has being what a human life is...the analyser is still involved at this stage..

this is clear..one is clear with oneself...."I" does not have the answer but the firm aim is there...whatever the consequences are...

And here the analyser may , somehow, reach its own limits, and seeing it it will accept to stop analysing...

Without all suffering for me this will never take place...

Suffering is not suffering, this is only an analytical false interpretation, it is a teacher........!!!! and contains an application which paralyses the work of the analyser under some conditions I try to evoke here..

But yes as you say the machine seeks news experiences all the time because it functions that way...because it is a machine, so is mechanical, automatic ,etc If I resist that like "I" resist to most things I rejected , bit by bit I am drowning ..deeper and deeper...

no bliss, no relief, no peace ...no weird energy, no other processes turned on etc

Good enough as a child and yet, this machine is not good enough as an adult...unless of course one accepts life as being a suffering, you said before that you don't if I am correct ?  and a bit of joy with sex ,alcohol, drugs and sun or whatever like money-power or whatever pleases one....what takes place when much older then ?? ..when death cannot be postponed indefinitely any more ?

when the continuity cannot be search for?? Life as so far lived totally collapses..



so the analyser will keep searching for new means to attempt to again run away ...from what its analytical process wants to discard , not to exist, even if many are facts...and rush to the other side where its choices are...

Best luck next time ,as John puts it sometimes ;-)

All this brings what I am trying to say which is all this considered, "I" am now reaching the moment where I may, at last, and this "at last" already contains relief in some sort of already goodness,so  the moment where I may  be in the position, having tried all tricks known to me, to stop all search because I see in another spark of global intelligence that all what I have done is "bullshit" , useless, stupid, nonsensical  etc

my misery, **whatever it is**,  is there and I am my misery , it is one and single element...not two like  the analyser which divides as a principle of its functioning sees...

back to k, the analyser is the analysed... but when I analyse the cliff and the possible fall, the analyser is not the analysed...

this is why such problem is never solved analytically because it, the analyser, thought, me , oneself, myself  etc... sees two where there is one.... in most when not in all mental fields there is always one....the analytical division here must never take place and Mother Nature indirectly tells us this by  using means to say this is wrong ,but we call it pain and analytically reject it, we reject this only help we will ever have is my view...



again analysing is vital to physically live...it is a deadly killer when it is not about that...

On this path or route or way or whatever, I start seeing that it possibly had never been about survival as a root..the root is about a proper functioning of "everything" ..the analytical process included...

the analyser alone cannot see that....

heaven helps those who help themselves....seems quite a fact then...but this if taken as a guaranty to take place will , of course , never take place....so it never can be "used"....

there is no room for the analyser in many aspects of being alive....

as usual etc....

as , as you know we could go on for days....

cheers...

..

 In such moments  of bliss , of grace, of absolute contentment etc when all the brain, or at least more than we know , is turned on, the analytical system does not take the lead any more...so division is over as the leader of our lives...

elimination so competition so business so war is over like politics etc etc etc....the time this is on..or even when is is off afterwards , such moments totally out of reach of the analyser can, if powerful enough, if deep enough , leave a definite imprint into the analytical process which is then changing the way it was used to go...

our other processes will influence the ways of the analyser up to their own limits

Our brain is directly war and killing...and in my view k for krishnamurti , is very wrong to say that this is because of our global past and so called violent ancestors, as well as because our own personal past, the old  brain etc etc ...it short , experience wise it really seems to be that we are insane good a making machines, good is a self evaluation of course,  because our brain is malfunctioning due to the turning off of some capacities due to the dictatorial functioning of one program, the analytical one this prevents all others to work...I do not dismiss k's global work at all.

 this analytical program had been loaded from scratch with what we call suffering, but it is not suffering at all , it is a signal and a catalyst which has the property to hurt if we attempt anything against it which we do all the time..left alone this signal does not become painful , never.....it is a precious tool and must be left alone...then it works as meant to be according to something I do not understand but it has its own ways to do so...but we have become so short sighted that all this is not understood at all but we only attempt to escape....major mistake one more time..

Why when supposedly travelling back to our alleged past , why ONLY stop at the episode where our alleged ancestors would eventually have been violent only ? why ? it does not make any logical sense to me..why not go back to the very Origin..would that very origin have no influence at all then...???

this energy which is there, peaceful , deep , non hierarchical, give no value etc as beyond description etc  etc etc , may be this Original energy, it may, or at least it is linked to it, so that the Origin is present all the time ...it is this energy which sustains the entire physical fields ....our problem is just a malfunction....which is indicated to us but we call that suffering so the analyser says : go away you !! and never ever inquires the proper way into that...

between us this gets on my nerves as it is a very limited use of even a thorough good old common logic..

We go that insane way because many functions of us are now turned off, this is my experience like the one of some....the only one process now working being the analytical process, this is THIS which is responsible for our insanity...the past for me has nothing at all to do with that...AS THE ROOT PROBLEM.

But the thing is the leaders, sorry the thieves, to lead the flock to accept everything including to go to war and be killed for the leaders amusements and kill people for no reasons, needs us to firmly believe that there is no alternative....

well that's enough for now.


Cheers, I mean it.